Tackling Gut Issues in Ultra Running with Sabrina Pace-Humphreys

Can gut issues derail years of training?

For many endurance athletes, stomach problems are one of the biggest performance limiters, and even the most experienced ultra runners aren't immune.

In this episode of the VOOM Performance Podcast, we sit down with ultra runner, author, speaker, and co-founder of Black Trail Runners, Sabrina Pace-Humphreys, for an honest conversation about the reality of racing when your nutrition plan falls apart.

After battling severe nausea during races including Ultra-Trail Snowdonia and UTMB, Sabrina shares how she's rebuilding her approach to fueling, hydration and gut health. From measuring sweat rate to rethinking carbohydrate intake, she explains why going back to basics has become the key to moving forwards.

More importantly, Sabrina opens up about the value of vulnerability in sport, reminding us that even elite athletes continue to learn, adapt and face challenges.

Whether you're training for your first marathon or your next 100-miler, this episode is packed with practical takeaways that could transform your race-day nutrition.

In this episode we cover:

• Why gut health is one of the biggest performance factors in ultra endurance events.
• Sabrina's experiences with nausea during Ultra-Trail Snowdonia and UTMB.
• How perimenopause and hormonal changes can influence endurance performance.
• Measuring sweat rate and understanding individual hydration needs.
• Finding the right carbohydrate intake instead of simply eating more.
• Sweet vs savoury fuelling, and why listening to your body matters.
• Why gut training should be part of every endurance athlete's programme.
• The importance of leaving your ego behind and returning to the fundamentals.
• Why honesty and vulnerability make stronger athletes and a stronger running community.

Key Takeaways

✔️ Gut training is just as important as physical training.

✔️ Hydration is highly individual and understanding your sweat rate can significantly improve performance.

✔️ More carbohydrates aren't always better; finding the amount your body can absorb is key.

✔️ Hormonal changes can have a significant impact on endurance nutrition and recovery.

✔️ Sharing setbacks helps normalise the challenges every athlete faces.

Resources & Links

Learn More About Voom Nutrition

VOOM Nutrition creates science-backed sports nutrition products designed for endurance athletes, helping support energy, hydration, recovery, and performance across training and racing.

Explore the full range of products at:
https://www.voomnutrition.co.uk/

Whether you're training for your next ultra, marathon, sportive or open water swim, Voom Nutrition helps you fuel smarter so you can perform at your best.

About Sabrina Pace-Humphreys

Sabrina Pace-Humphreys is an accomplished ultra runner, author, public speaker, mother of four and co-founder of Black Trail Runners. She began running to overcome postnatal depression and has since completed some of the world's toughest endurance races while inspiring thousands through her honesty, resilience and advocacy for greater diversity in trail running.

To order Sabrinas book Start Where You Are - An easy to follow, 10-week training plan to get you to 5k.

 https://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/start-where-you-are-9781399423311/

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Have you ever struggled with gut issues during training or racing?

Let us know your biggest challenge and the strategies that have worked for you, we'd love to hear your experiences.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Strength is the reason that I'm here talking to you today, starting another training cycle for the Super Bowl of trail running. Strength is what got me through UTS. Strength in my body, strength in my tendons, biometric strength, being able to carry and run and walk with a massively heavy pack on my back, in the rain, when all of your clothes and being able to fight the wind, locking in the core when you're about to fall over on a stone or a bolt. Strength is it is a non-negotiable. And for me, as a coach, as a woman, it should be a non-negotiable for anyone listening to this podcast, whether you're a runner or not.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

80 miles into Ultra Trail Mont Blanc, Sabrina Pace Humphrey stops. Not an injury, but severe nausea. Then in May at Ultra Trail Snowdonia, 100 kilometers, it happened again. For 80 kilometers, she was vomiting so hard that her watch triggered an emergency alarm. The only thing she could keep down was she finished because she definitely has a strong eye. But posted a few days after the race ninety-nine days until I can go again. That again is the full ultra trail mobile. She's gonna climb that and it's higher on foot while trying to solve the problem that has stopped her twice. Welcome to Boom Performance. I'm Melberry, and this episode I'm delighted to be joined by Sabrina Pay Summerfree. If you don't know Sabrina Pay Summerfree, she is the mom of four, grandmother of three, ultra runner, run coach PT, and co-founder of Latin Trail Runners, a registered UK charity that has spent the last six years asking who other trails actually go into. She came into running through post-natal depression, a doctor's restriction, and her stubbornness has since taken her across the Sahara to marathon to start the length of the headline way in the summer fine race and to chamony twice. She got sober in twenty sixteen and she wrote flat sheet, a memoir about rural racism, and her new book, Start Where You Are, is a beginning 5K guide for women that don't see themselves as runners. But today we're talking about the things that she's been most honest about recently. Not the races she's finished, but what it takes to keep going when your body is in an open revolt. Serena welcome.

SPEAKER_00 2:36

Wow, wow, that was one of the best introductions I think I've ever had. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Right, and I wanted to start Sodonia May this year. We obviously met, and I got to know you and your wonderful husband, Neil, really well on that hundred kilometres. But again, a gut problem. You've talked about how the last two years has been truly awful doing that. Just to put a little bit of context about that event and the gut problems that you've had over the last couple of years.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yeah, I mean Ultra Trail Snowdonia is part of the part of a race series here in the UK by UTMB, and it covers every distance from 25k through to 100 miles. And yes, this year I took part in the 100k, I took part in the 50k last year and wanted to kind of test myself over a larger distance. And also the ultra trail snowdonia 100k is known as one of the, if not the hardest 100k mountain race in the world. So, you know, I just wanted, I love being out in wild spaces. I had taken part in the Ultra Trail Snowdonia 50 Mila in 2019 when I DNF'd at Bedagellert. And so therefore there was unfinished business there. You know, I was there with your wonderful wife, and we met each other at Blaine Bestenog and had never kind of met properly before, and we spent a long time together with a similar pace, and we were able to kind of not annoy each other too much um by staying together. And but it the conditions were atrocious. We knew that the weather was going to be bad, which would which meant the course was even more dangerous in some places, very slippy rock, dangerous ascents, dangerous descents, uh ground that had been gone over by hundred mile runners and some 80k runners, and then we were on it. So conditions where we might normally run and gain some time that we've maybe lost on a technical up or down, that became very difficult. So it really became a race of attrition. It really, really did. I mean, half of the field DNA and and and we could kind of continued on. But yeah, for me, when it came to you know, Holly finished and I finished, and it was a real, it was a real mental and physical, you know, fight once again. And for me, yeah, uh 50k in um just past Blaine Fest and Walk is when yeah, nausea reared its head again, and I thought, here we go again, because it has been a constant companion for me. UTMB 2025, you know, it caused me to eventually not be able to make a cutoff at 80 miles, um, and at some races before that as well, but certainly over the past couple of years, as I got deeper, I think into perimenopause, um, as I started to age, my body's ability to be able to be okay with what I used to be able to put in it change and it has changed and is changing. So although I I was so so proud to complete Ultra Trail Snowdomi 100 and you know, really put put everything I could into it, now I'm in a training block again. Gut training is number one in terms of my priority of things that I'm I'm doing daily.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

It was uh it was a pleasure to walk with you to the train station. I enjoyed that part of the event. I think I said to you, do you want me to talk to you or not? And I think you said whatever. So in my natural style, I you know talked to you and we talked a lot about gut training, didn't we? And we talked a little bit about the changes that I've seen and the signs that you recognize over the last two years. And and this podcast is about talking about the solutions. And you talked about you were gonna go and find those solutions. So talk to me about what you have found out and what are the things that you're gonna introduce in how many days left to go?

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Oh my gosh, is well, it was 11 weeks on Friday. Uh so let's say 10 and a half weeks to go until I stand on the start line in Chamonix. Yeah, I mean, and I love the fact that this podcast is about solutions. You know, the body's changed the body changes and and and we we either adapt with it or we get left behind. In a sense, I feel as though my lack of being able to strategically and to intelligently adapt has led to this nausea, this all-consuming nausea that I've been experiencing. So, in terms of solutions, I've really taken it, I've really taken it back to basics. And obviously, we have our chat, um, Ultra Trail Snowdonia, and I was chatting to Holly as well. And since then I've chatted, I've revisited information um from my friend Raini McGregor, who is a sports dietitian. I have and whom the whole chapter in my book, Start Where You Are, is written um with Reamy, basically, um, around fueling. So a lot of a lot of the stuff that Reuni's been telling me over the years, and that I talk about in the book that I'm I'm kind of re-looking at and and using, but also I've taken advice from Paul Booth, who is the uh sports scientist, nutritionist that worked with Tom Evans and Ruth Croft and other elite athletes um around their prep, the UTMB. Um, I've also spoke to a friend of mine who is also a coach and an elite athlete, uh, Sophie Grant, who's a La Sportiva athlete. So people have been so much so willing to share since finding out that this is something that I've been having to deal with and I'm still having to deal with. People have been so willing to share their expertise with me. And I think some things that have really come up for me is what I'm doing in my runs now, is also although I know what my sweat rate is in terms of electrolyte and sodium requirements, what I haven't been aware of because I've never had it tested, is my sweat rate. So how much I'm sweating per hour. So what I'm doing in a lot of my runs at the moment, especially those kind of runs that are around about an hour, is that I am measuring my sweat rate. And I'm doing that by, you know, as I say, stripping off, you know, weighing myself before I immediately before I go out on my run, going out and doing the run, come back and weighing myself so I can get a sense of kind of what I'm losing and what I'm using in different temperatures and different environments as well. So, you know, I'm doing a lot more writing within my within my running journal around it was it was this temperature, this is a session I did, this is what I weighed before, this is what I weighed after, how I felt, etc. Because what my concern is, is that I am not I'm not getting enough hydration in to help the absorption of the carbohydrates that I'm taking in. So I think what might be happening, and this is something I'm testing, is that I'm ODing almost on high carbs and that it's sitting in my stomach because I'm not getting enough water in in order to provide that good absorption barrier for the carbohydrates to get into my bloodstream. But also I'm worried that what I've maybe have been doing in the past, again, this is from my conversation with Paul Boog, is is taking too much carburetor, too much sugar, too much carbohydrate, because that's what we're told, right? Everything you read by even sports people, influences, etc., is you know, carb, carb high, carb high, hard, and it's like you know, how many how many carbs can you get into? 120 grams, 130 grams. And actually, I in the past have been guilty of thinking I need more carbs when actually the conversation I had with Paul and the data I've been looking at is maybe I actually don't need as many carbs as I have thought up at up at those levels, right? Um so what I'm doing now is really dialing it back, going back down the carb level, ensuring that I'm getting the water in, you know, water in one, but then what does that, what do those other carb um that I'm taking in look like? Is it a carb drink mix? Is it a gel? Is it nothing like that? Is it, you know, I'm I'm I've been trying out, you know, rice balls, etc. Again, the conversation that we have around sugar, you know, in my stomach, etc. etc. Because, you know, when I start running, the moment I start running, I just don't want sweet things. Just it's like my body is like, nah, you know, you want savour, I want savoury. So from a solutions point of view, I'm really dropping the ego at the door, dropping everything that I thought I knew at the door, and very much going back to basics. And and that starts with really understanding am I getting enough hydration in me? Because I'm awful in some races, I'll forget to drink, right? So I'm also wearing, or I'll forget to drink regularly, as regularly as I need to. So I've started, you know, wearing a stopwatch, you know, and at just every every kind of 10-15 minutes, like take a sip, you know, take a sip, take sips. So yeah, I've yeah, I've very much dropped my ego at the door when it comes to nutrition and and I'm kind of yeah, dialing it back in order to build it up.

SPEAKER_02 11:29

We talked a lot in episode one with Rainy around sodium consumption and how much you need, and if anybody hasn't to the episode go back, and she's got some really good things that you have to test, don't you? And uh you is all that and then some of your reasons and you're gonna be more vulnerable over those last two years. How important do you think it is that somebody like yourself uh influences many to be honest and vulnerable and say it hasn't worked and I've got to start from ground zero again?

SPEAKER_01 12:10

I think it's it's it's absolutely imperative. I think that there's so much misinformation out there, there's so much that you will see people saying that are tied in with brands, right? So I'm not sponsored by any nutrition brand, I'm not sponsored by any brand. I think when people ask me why, I'm like, I think I'm just too disruptive for many brands, so that you know, but I have no loyalty to any. And so therefore, I can be really, really, really transparent in the sense of what works and what doesn't work. Um, and I think that people trust me because of that, because I'm gonna tell it like it is, and I'm not gonna be around the bush because ultimately people will test stuff because they see me do it with it, they'll see me wearing it, they'll see me eating it or drinking it, they'll constantly be asking me for advice in my DMs in terms of like what do you eat, what do you drink, how often do you eat, how often do you drink, what supplements do you take, why does your skin look so good? Is it you know, all of these things. So therefore, I have a responsibility to people, have no responsibility to any brand. And even if a brand did come along and say, look, we want to work with you, we want to make you an ambassador, or we want to partner with you, that would always be on the understanding that you can't control me. Like the reason that I am is because I am here and you're talking to me is because of the the the people that listen to me, the people that trust me. For me, the moment, yeah, I I was gonna say the moment that I lose that is the moment, but I would never lose it because ultimately that is who I am. I am gonna tell it, I'm gonna keep it real because it's you know, the repercussions of not keeping it real are just too dangerous, you know. And it's why in my book, you know, it's why I've used experts throughout the track chapters, people that I trust, people that I've worked with, people that I respect absolutely, from Remy to Kath Munro to Emma Kirko DeNubi, to Ed Boss, my Visio, to Candy's Ligan Will Ligam Williams, the the sports from a psychology point of view. I use these people, I talk about these people, I'll promote these people because I trust them implicitly with the information and the knowledge that they have, and people trust me to give them that. So, so yeah, I'll I'll always be that person.

SPEAKER_02 14:34

But it's brilliant that that's the person that you are because I don't think that there are enough people like you, I don't think that there are too many people that either follow a trend or follow a conversation because it's a topical and it's a lot about the perimenopause and menopause. And if you were to look at the last two years and the journey that you've been on, do you think that that is the change of view from a hormonal point of view? You're going into very much that perimenopause phase of your life?

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah, I mean I'm through it now, so I'm I'm yeah, I mean, I you know, I had blood test done earlier this year and actually with really because we were really after arc of attrition, it was so bad. So early on, you know, not even you know, not even 10k in. And we were both pretty concerned about like what might be happening, and um, yeah, I have blood trest done and I'm through paramenopause. I am a menopausal woman, I'm on the other other side of it now, and yeah, I'm very young to go through that. But my genetics in the female side of my family, all of my mother, my grandmother, etc., have gone through peramenopause and menopause earlier. Yeah, and absolutely, I in the last two years, it just feels like I'm a different athlete. I that I'm a different that you know, we go through so much when we're going through perimenopause in terms of that that feeling of like, who the off am I? Like, I used to like that, now I don't. I used to be a really calm person, now I'm not. All of these from a psychological point of view, from a mental point of view, from a physical point of view, from a hormonal point of view. I felt so many times like a stranger in my own body because what used to work didn't work anymore. It just what I was taking in, how I was running, how how my body recovered after running, how what what a three-week build looked like in terms of what I can handle, and ultimately like how much rest and what rest looked like in order for me to be able to perform. I felt so like an alien in my own body. And to the point, I would cry because I would be like, you know, we say to these to ourselves, I'm so crap, what's happened to me? I'm not the athlete, you know. I say it to my athletes, and I say, you know, we can never compare ourselves with the athlete that we were even a year ago. Like, so therefore, if you're telling me you want to hit a PB that you got 10 years ago that you're like, and if you say, you know, you can't work with me unless I'm gonna get you there, I'm gonna say like goodbye and good luck, because you're not the same person you were 10 years ago. And we beefed ourselves up for it. And I think women are the worst for it because of societal expectation and and everything that we have to juggle.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

It's like, oh God, you know, and now I'm juggling, but now in my physical side, I'm not, I must not be doing it right because I'm not able to keep my food down, I'm not able to run as fast, I'm not able to recover as fast.

SPEAKER_01 17:25

So I think that I've gone through all of that, all of that in the past couple of years.

SPEAKER_02 17:31

I think one of the things the salient points is comparison is the thief of joy, isn't it? Oh god, yeah. We wouldn't move forward in your honesty again around the medical journey that you've had Rainy talked about. You wake up on a third day in Paris with a wonderful crying of who you are and and the relevancy, and I'm sure that the conversations that we had with people like Rainy and Paul Boo and what is what are the things that you're gonna be testing over the next 10, 11 weeks? What are some of the things that you're either stripping back or things that you're doing differently?

SPEAKER_01 18:11

So I am really ensuring that if I'm testing with any kind of gels or specific sports nutrition, that the ratios are right in terms of kind of those, you know, fructose, etc., etc., that I'm not that the concentration isn't so high that it's it's it's detrimental to me, like performing a session. And so I am trialing everything from boom products um right through to other kind of competitive products, something that I can not only tolerate, but actually I look forward to as well. Because like there's nothing worse than thinking, I know I've got a fuel, but actually, I just don't want what I've got at all. So I'm really I'm I'm calling so much stuff in that I can, if I haven't tested it in a while, then I'm kind of going back to testing it, a mixture of kind of sweet and savory products as well. And because there are savory products out there on the market, right? That pitch themselves as sports nutrition. So for example, NAP does like a bullion, almost like a they they they're marketing it as like a chicken needle soup. But it's I'm like, how does that, how does that work in the blast cults, you know? So I'm testing all of these different things and and I want to get to a point, certainly within um the next kind of four, I would say four to five weeks, where I'm starting to kind of really narrow down and I'm starting to really understand over the course of shorter runs that are more high intensity, or the longer runs, or the big climbs that I'm doing. Like today, after I speak to you, I'm simulating a climb, uh, the longest climb on the UTMB course from Les Contemines Bourgeois to Col de Bonome, and I'm gonna be, you know, fueling, but also not only am I using a host of different products and being very strategic on how I do those so that I can really feel the benefits or the or the disadvantages of using said products. So it's not like it's not like pick and mix over a run. It's very much okay, on this run, I'm gonna test this brand and I'm gonna be taking those gels. You know, am I gonna sip a gel over the course of an hour or am I gonna eat this the rice ball over the course? How am I breaking it down? So it's it's not just the actual product, but it's the strategy for taking the product as well that I'm being really, really mindful of. And also, like, how does that look in terms of um, for example, at UTMB, you know, you'll be out on the run, but then you get into aid stations, right? And there's this variety of food at the aid stations. Well, what does it look like? Am I gonna use the food at the aid stations or is it gonna be meal that comes with everything that I need? And what does that look like? You know, so so whereas I've had like, you know, he's been wait ready and waiting with like noodles and stuff before, it's like, well, am I gonna really want that? Because actually the experience shows that when I get into an aid station, I'm like, it was like, what can be quick that I can digest, easy to digest, that's different from what I've been digesting out on course, and practicing that as well. And how do I practice that in the course of like a long run in terms of like stimulating that stopping at an aid station and the body and the heart rate being high and the stomach maybe not wanting to tolerate a lot of food? So I'm really trying to replicate event conditions as much as I can.

SPEAKER_02 21:25

A lot of that is around how do you consume real foods and what real food do you use on top of sports nutrition?

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 21:40

And how does your body change on all of those kind of trains and that's what training is about, isn't it? It's trying to understand what it does and what it doesn't work. But also the plan A and C that you know when something's gonna be planning doesn't work and then work. Yeah, well I need that now because and that's really important. Support crew is so vital, isn't it, on events like the ones that you don't know.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah, I mean, you know that you were, you know, you were crew and you you've crewed, and you know, Neil's kind of chief crew, you know, he knows me he knows me so so well. You know, we've been married for 23 years, together for 26, and he just is able to read me even when I don't have to say anything. You know, so at Ultra Trail Snownia, you know, he knows what I can get like at aid stations in the sense of oh, but he was checking, you know, wanted my wrappers, wanted to see what I'd eaten while I was out there, forcing me to eat stuff while I was there and saying that you're not, you know, you're not gonna go until you've at least eaten this. So he knows my games that I can play, which I think is really important, because it's easy to pull the wool over people's eyes. Do you know what I mean? But actually, I think having having him as my crew, I can't really. And also he knows he really knows how much it means to me. So he knows even when I say to him, no, I don't want anything, he's like, You need this. Like, I know what you're gonna be like if you don't complete this race or if you feel as though you could have done more. So I think that crew cannot be underestimated having people around you that kind of almost they know what to give you and what how by how you look, right? Like how you look, how you arrive at an aid station, how you leave an aid station, you know, we don't want to answer loads of questions, do we, when we're runners and we're in aid stations. We kind of just want to be like, here's my pack, can you refill it, give me it back? We want to be told, do you want this? It's like you came up to me at Crousseur, like, would you like some chili? Would you like cheese? Or like, yes, yes, because you just don't want to think about it. So, as much as you can do, as you've said, in training to take away the decision-making process, the easier it is for crew to get you round because they they absolutely get you round.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

I thought you looked fabulous the last time we saw each other when you trotted off from the glass of station. I'm gonna talk about another topic that we're both really passionate about strength training. And strength training, especially for women in their forties and fifties, we know women in their fifties are losing five to eight percent of any muscle. How important is strength training for your bone density, for your tender resilience, for everything, and in this context for you doing the events that you do, strength training, vitally important, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:32

My god, it was funny. Uh yeah, absolutely yes, 100%. Uh, I was hosting a premiere of the film we're going to talk about in a bit of a weekend, and one of the questions from the audience is if you if you could recommend one thing that people do in order to keep them running, in order to start running, or in order to, yeah, what would it be? And I was like, if I had to choose between a running session and strength session, I would always choose the strength session. Strength is the reason that I'm here talking to you today, starting another training cycle for the Super Bowl of trail running. Strength is the strength is what got me through UTS, strength in my body, strength in my tendons, biometric strength, being able to carry and run and walk with a massively heavy pack on my back, in the rain, when all of your clothes and being able to fight the wind, knocking in the core when you're about to fall over on a stone or a box. Strength is it is a non-negotiable. And for me as a coach, as a woman, it should be a non-negotiable for anyone listening to this podcast, whether you're a runner or not, strength is the secret source. And it doesn't need to look like a hundred pounds a month subscription to a top class gym. It doesn't need to look like hours and hours in the gym. I mean, in Start Where You Are, I've got a whole section on strength training, body weight exercises that you can do at home, that you can progress. I talk about the gym, I talk about the fear around, yeah, there she is, there she is. I talk about the fear that women have, especially women that are new to strength. And walking into a gym, looking over at the weights area, the free weights area, right? It's like, and and you know, these, these, these gyms, you know, they are designed in a specific way, and they're not designed with women in mind. Those those weights area normally, like near the back of the gym, you know, if you go there at a certain time, like how you are approached or how you approach or how you are, like it's just so tricky. But I I absolutely empower any woman that I meet, whether it's through my own coaching, whether it's through my books, whether it's through what I show online, that it's the secret source. It is the secret source. And as I said, and I please believe me, if I had to choose a session to do on a day and it was between a Rome and Strength session, it would be strength every time. I think it is. I think it really is. I think that you know, as women, we there really have so much on our plates to do. And I think that since I really I got I became I qualified as a personal trainer quite a few years ago now. And I qualified as a personal trainer because the women that I run coach at my mum's on the run group every Friday, I was teaching them to run, and then what would happen is these common injuries would occur, pain in the lower back, pain in the knees, pain in the hips, a lot of it as well, you know, a lot of these women were mothers from childbearing, you know, etc. etc. And I would be I would be sending them to these, you know, PTs that specialized in strength and physios. And then I really just wanted to understand it a lot more. So I was like, well, I'll I'll qualify as a as a PT as well, and and you know, do additional qualifications around strength. Being strong helps me to feel as though I can get through a day. Being strong in body, holding myself, knowing I'm strong, knowing I can lift at least my body weight, knowing that how and how that translates into how that I move as a mother, as a woman, as a community builder, as an activist, being strong in body. And when I'm in this gym and I'm lifting and I'm deadlifting or I'm I'm squatting and I'm looking at myself and I'm like, you know what? You've got this. It just all that feel-good, you know, the adrenaline, the feel-good hormones, just like every time I'm in here and I'll turn my music up loud, and I'll just feel like a queen and a superhero, and that translates into all areas of my life. And what does the music playlist look like?

unknown 28:48

Give us your phone.

SPEAKER_01 28:49

My God, I'm into 90s playlists at the moment. I'm into 90s, so I have uh like these mega mixes, everything, and it just, you know what? I'm just like, oh my god, tune, and I'll be like running, dancing around the gym. And yeah, for me, it used to be a lot of Beyonce, a lot of Beyonce, but then I found a couple of like 90s channels on Spotify, and I listened to like Heart 90s and Histery and some, and I'm just like, oh, anything that reminds me of like the good old days. Do you know what I mean? So yeah, that's a mixture of like R and B and a bit Britney Spears and Kylie Minogue and all of the all of the 90s tunes.

SPEAKER_02 29:26

Let's talk about community building. So for six years, Black Trail Runners, you are the co-founder of uh it's a UK charity, amazing work. Talk about the last six years of that as a charity and the journey that you've been on, the things that you've learned, the things that have surprised you and the challenges that still exist for you as a charity and organization.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

Oh god, yeah. I mean, I I think about as being six years next month, and it's it's wild, really. I mean, we started, we launched the charity in COVID in lockdown, the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement, the murder of uh Anu Darbury, a black runner killed in America for while he was running, murdered. And I think about, you know, sitting in that room, sitting in a Zoom room with some people that I had found online, Sonny, Phil, Rachel, Adora was there, and you know, as saying, you know, there's there's nothing, nothing that prioritizes black and people of colour within the trail running space, you know, and if anything, we need safe space right now. And you know, we'd all had experience of standing on those trailrunning events hard lines and being the only people of colour there. And as a woman, even, you know, even a that just no one there, you might see a black or a brown man, you might see a ethnically diverse man, but as women as well there, and you know, we just we just wanted to try and build a club, build a community that we would feel safe in at that time. Um, and there wasn't anything around the world, there was nothing like black trail runners. And we launched it and it went wild, it went crazy. People from around the world, not just in the UK, saying, Finally, finally, a community that centers us, right? I love trail running, but there's never been anything like this I can join. Can I join? I'm in San Francisco, can I join? I'm in Brazil, can I join? It just went crazy. So that snowball, and it really was a snowball because we're a campaigning charity as well. So it wasn't just about building community, it was a campaigning. And our first campaign was an open letter to UK race organizers asking them why they weren't collecting ethnicity data. You know, why is this not an important why is it not important for you to know the ethnic makeup of your runners? And most of those were owned by white men, and they just never ever thought about it. And for us, you know, that's like, well, the fact that you've never thought about it, the fact that you don't feel it's important to understand that data tells us that this is a customer base that you're not really interested in. And that's what it tells us people look at your websites as well, and they don't see any representation of ethnically diverse people or women or lesser angle-bodied people or members of the LGBTQIA, because you know, it's it's that representation that first and foremost, when you're looking for an event or you're looking for a club to join, if you don't see people that look like you, it subconsciously says to you, maybe I don't belong here, I might not be safe here. So we've just our our tenant, our key areas of three areas, access skills and representation. So if you think of those as the top of the totem pole, every single activation that you see black trail runners working on, every fund, every event, it fits into one of those, if not all of those three pillars. So access, transportation, financial access, safety, skills, navigation, kit, footwear, nutrition, representation. If you can't see it, you can't be it, or if you can't see it, then you have to, you have to be it. So films, media articles, podcasts, social media, etc. etc. And you know, I was yeah, co-founder and I think I was trustee for the first couple of years as well. And then I moved on to become chief operating officer. Um, and yeah, our membership rate, our membership has grown, you know, triple, doubled year on year. I think at the moment, when I last asked for the statistics, we were at like just under 2,000 members, high proportion of members around urbanised areas in the UK, so London, Bristol, Birmingham, Manchester, etc. Many of them in the south east, although that's changing in the sense of like we're doing more of, as you will see at the weekend, you know, our film premiere was in Hepton Bridge in Yorkshire. And there's a massive, there's massive black and brown communities within kind of Leeds, Huddersfield, Liverpool, Manchester, etc. So the demand is there, the demand for social runs, which we do. We we qualify social run leaders again, you know, the lack of global majority social run leaders and coaches by you qualified by UK Athletics in the UK. So we work on that. We have a fund that qualifies people. So we have social runs, we have trail taster days, we have Back to the Trails, the UK and Europe's most ethnically diverse trail running events. So the change has been epic. And Black to the Trails as a case in point is is is kind of one of my one of the greatest things that we do, and and I'm you know in charge of that now. I think from a learnings point of view, um I think that you have to be very, very aware that, and it's not just members of black, it's not just black trail runners, but you have to be very aware of the need and the uh for brands to want to commodity, you know, make you a commodity, you know, the transactional nature of what it is to align yourself with brands, you know, that look, you know, at the end of the day, they want to sell trainers in kit, right? They that's what they want. That's what they want. So ultimately it's understanding your value and your worth. And I think that what makes Black Trail Runners different is that, you know, this is about social justice at the end of the day. This is about creating access to an outdoor space in which we haven't felt a sense of inclusion and belonging. So it's so much more than a pair of trainers or kit. And I think that there are really only a handful of people in the six years that have been running Black Trail Runners from a brand space that really understand that, that really are there for the long term. Um, and Adidas Torex is one of those, and I'll contact at Adidas Torex. You know, they've been with us since day one, they've put their money where their mouth is from day one, and it's the reason that we've been with them for six years, right? It's the reason that we renewed with them a couple of years ago, is that actually it's about more than a pair of trainers, and they get that. Um, and I think that still there is so much learning to be done within the brand space um around what it takes to change the face of sport of running when it comes to engaging ethnically diverse runners.

SPEAKER_02 35:32

What about the conversations that you talked about how people don't really listen to talk about you and say this is what I want rather than you know taking the time and having a game what we are here is a documentary, it was a documentary around amazing women and some women that I've had the pleasure of also getting to know as part of your community. Why last year? Why why did it happen then? Why did it not happen in those evolution years? Why do you feel confident it was the right time to produce that book?

SPEAKER_01 36:07

It didn't happen in the evolution years because nobody was interested. Nobody's interested in, you know, I am not the typical uh influencer or the the demographic of woman that people that brands wanted to invest in. And in a sense, I'm still not right. I'm 48, I'm a mum, I'm a grandmother, I'm not an elite athlete. At the moment, I'm a back of the pack athlete and proud in all of these things that they're not looking for, and they certainly weren't looking for that back in the day. So even when it was, you know, Black Lives Matter and brands were like, we need to do better, be better, etc., there was still only a certain amount of money to go around. And what we wanted to do with any money that came into Black Trail Worldness was put it into the community, right? It was to do the things that we needed to do at grassroots level, you know, is to ensure that we could qualify people so that we could get more black and brown people out on the streets, out on the trails, etc. But I had I always had the idea for this documentary in my head about the importance of storytelling of women. You know, look on YouTube. Look on YouTube and look for the look for documentaries about women in trail. I mean, I've been watched almost every single documentary around Octo Trail de Mont Blanc, literally only a couple of them uh from a women through a women's lens. So that just really shows, not just from a brand point of view, but from a creator point of view, that lack of just that lack of kind of resource that's being put into this. So the reason for it doing it at UTMB last year was that it was the first year that it was the first year that seven of us had got into this UTMB finals week. And I knew from the moment that the ballot entries came out, I was like, well, if we're gonna do it any year, it has to be this year. You know, I was taking part in UTMB C and then Juliet Serena CCC, Becky OCC, Grace Nettley, and Angie ETC. Um, and it it was just a moment, as I say in the film, it was a moment in time. Do I want and do I need to believe that that will just continue to increase? Absolutely. Do I believe that the resource more than ever is being dwindled to such a point that it makes stuff like that really, really difficult? Absolutely. Um, and I think with even the changes that that UTMB are making when it comes to uh financial access to these spaces, I think that again, that's put in more barriers up than it's taking down. But it happened, and it happened through my relationship, the Burring relationship with the likes of Stephanie Case. Um, and and work that I done work that I had done with her and board at Hard Rock in terms of consultation, and then just developing more of a relationship with Stephanie, who then had a relationship with Carrie at Dream Lens Media, who's you know the female director that we used, and then being able to like really pull on contacts that I had, you know, around like this is the idea for the film, this is what we're doing, it's happening, like get on board. And I'm just so proud that we managed to get that film out there. And I think just cutting off the back of screening at Hebden Bridge at the weekend, like people are in tears, like they're watching the film and they are, and this isn't just black people, like this is allies, this is women, this is like little kids, little girls. I was sent a video yesterday of a little girl who never runs, running with her dog because she'd watched We Are Here and she was inspired. And and that, you know, it transcends, it transcends seven black women on the trails. It's about motherhood, it's about being a woman, it's about juggling those balls, it's about not seeing yourself in these spaces and seeing someone that is a bit like you, whether that's ability, whether it's colour, whether it's age, whether it's life circumstance. And that's what the film transcends. And then that's why I think that it touches so many people. And I'm so proud that I, you know, I'm an executive producer of it. I'm constantly looking for opportunities in order to show it, especially on the big screen, because it comes alive on the big screen.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

But anybody that wants to be able to obviously watch that film put a link in the show notes and the trailer. Just tell us about why to create uh a running event about what uh background of Black to the Trails and what's your vision for it.

SPEAKER_01 40:31

So we created Black to the Trails. So we had the idea for Black to the Trails in 2022, and again, it was in a Zoom meeting. You know, we've been working with various event organizers throughout the UK. We've been um you know, talking to them and consulting with them around what it would take to get more ethnically diverse people to their events, looking at access, looking at all of that. And we just sat in a Zoom meeting one night, and and it was Sunny, you know, one of my very good friends and co-founder of Black Trailrunners, and he said, Look, I think we've got to do it. We've got to show, we've got to build it. We've got to show why it's so important for us to be at the forefront of organizing events like this, how we look at these events through a different lens, how we engage our community, how we make it truly accessible and inclusive. And honest, I'll be honest with you, like a lot of us sat in that room were like, we didn't get into this to be event organisers. Do you know what I mean? We just want more people to run. But then we thought about it and we thought, you know, we could try. And at that time, we had a really great relationship with Strava. And uh they wanted to do more around kind of the UK's running scene and engagement of ethnically diverse communities. So we managed to get a little bit of funding from Strava. And we had we we had the first event at Duncil Downs in 2023. It was actually supposed to be in 2022, but the day that it was supposed to take place, a couple of days well, a couple of days before it was supposed to take place, the Queen died. Um, and we had to make a decision as to what we did, and yeah, we decided to postpone it and host it six months later. And yeah, it sold out months ahead. It had a waiting list, it just being there, you know. There's I'm not gonna make any bones about it. Organising events is so hard. It's so hard, especially for a woman like me who like really has to be over everything, and delegation is really hard for me as well. But I've learned very quickly that you know, this is a team, this is a team effort. And there's nothing like looking out, and for three years it's grown year on year, we've increased numbers year on year. It's always been at Dunstable Dance. We've only ever had one event a year, um, because that was where, you know, that was all we had the resource for, right? It was all we could manage, you know. Black to the Trails was very much run by volunteers, you know, we didn't have staff, etc., etc. Um, and then we um and then we knew that we had something really, really special because we were the the data was showing us women, people of colour, kids, a growing demographic of people that were coming, that wanted to come, that wanted more. So then we started talking to London Marathon events a couple of years ago around kind of what their aspirations were within this space and what their aspirations were in terms of the engagement of ethnically diverse people, and very much, you know, a lot of what they're doing very much syncs in with what we want to do within the trial running space. And um, and so they supported us for the past two years with kind of you know funding and resources and um yeah, it enabled us to add Bristol on to our event roster this year. So, yeah, Bristol was the it was the sensible next step for us after being in Dunstable. We already have social runs that happen there, we already have a growing community there. We've got a great relationship now with the University of Bristol and the work that they are doing and the work that they want to do in terms of the engagement of their student body, not just as runners, but also as event organizers. So, you know, we are developing a talent pathway for ethnically diverse students that want to get into event management, they can do that higher back to the trails. And that's another kind of string to our bow because, again, that's a massive area within the events industry is that's lacking is ethnic. Diverse people working at all levels there. And yeah, we've got a great brand new operations manager that's on board for Bristol. And she is just a great resource, even in the month and a half that she's been on board. We're really looking forward to Bristol. I think Blaze Castle is going to be a really special event, especially with the history that we found out about the estate itself and the education that we can kind of do around uh Bristol's links with kind of transatlantic slave trade and freedom and everything like that. So it's looking good in terms and in terms of our growth plans. Our growth plans are lofty over the next five years. So we're seeking to go to a different city every year and to really engage with the community that we are growing, but also other communities that we're aware of that themselves feel ignored, feel marginalized within the trail running space. And also we're playing around with a different concept as well of race that we think could be quite fun. So yeah, we're in kind of deep, you know, very kind of detailed conversations around what that looks like. Um, but ultimately it looks like getting more people every year to the event. So having the ability to scope at venues as well is really important. So we're just about to announce a brand new venue for Black to the Trails Southeast next year as well. So yeah, it's looking, it's looking very, very good. It's busy, but you know, we're about the action and about the change.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

So that's one of the things that definitely resonated with me. We we talk a lot about being part of the problem or being part of the solution. And far too often we talk about the problem, but we don't talk about the solution. And that's so vital for change, isn't it? And 2026 is a significant year for you. You're 10 years over. And uh I know that that's a journey that has been hard for you, and we obviously talked about how I've lost a friend in the 30s to alcoholism, and it's you know it's a challenging one. But if you look back at that decade, what are some of the things that you have learned and you obviously talk in black sheep around that kind of club soda? Just tell us a little bit more about that last 10 years.

SPEAKER_01 46:06

I think that you know, early in recovery, you know, I put down my last drink, yeah, and in you know, 2016, you know, really hit rock bottom. And I think that I couldn't imagine a life without alcohol. You know, I just couldn't. I use alcohol to numb, I use alcohol to deal with trauma. Um, I could not imagine myself. I I just didn't see myself without it. And you know, recovery is difficult, it's a day at a time. I joined a fellowship um and was very much had my hand held in those early days. The early days are hard, I could not go to wet pre places, wet places being anywhere there was alcohol, whether it was someone's house or a pub, you know, the the addiction was was that strong. And then I think, you know, a day at a time is what we say within the rooms, you know, a day at a time, you know, I am only ever sober in this moment and I have to work for it constantly. Um, and there have been many things over the past 10 years from you know deciding to close down my my PR agency. You know, I ran a PR agency for 16 years. I've lost people that I love, I've lost friends that I love. You know, one of the women that I got into recovery with, you know, mother of five, you know, lost her to cancer a couple of years into my recovery. She was my recovery sister. And I think that you know, you realize you what the years that alcohol can rob from you, the years that being in active addiction can rob for from you, and how life is really, really, really short. And, you know, whereas I went from not imagining a life without alcohol to now, I wouldn't have the life I would not be here talking to you now had I continued to feed my addiction because the path that I was on was of self-destruction. I had everything from the outside. From the outside, if you didn't know me, I had the house, I had the holidays, I had the business, I had the husband and the kids, the inside just scraped the surface and it everything fell apart, everything was falling apart. And I was the conduit for that. I allowed it, I wanted it, I wanted oblivion. I didn't, I did, I I yeah, I just wanted that oblivion. It was alcohol was the only way to get it. So now it's not like that, you know. I I have been through so much, you know. If you can imagine setting up a community and campaigning charity that centers black people, you know, especially within this geopolitical climate where you know it's unsafe for some of our members to go out. You know, it's you're constantly asking yourself, is it safe for me to be here alone? If it is it safe for me to represent in this way, if anything now, you know, it's worse than it ever has been in the sense of kind of being a co-founder and a director of an event that's about celebrating, you know, ethnic diversity, celebrating people that are non-white within the outdoors. You know, that stuff would have sent me to drink. Yeah, is it like absolutely sent me to drink? And today I know that I couldn't do that stuff with the strength of mind and body if I drank. So, um, and that'll, you know, and and I will I say that a day at a time, you know. I hope to go to bed tonight and lay my head on the pillow and not having drunk, but nothing is guaranteed. So you've reminded me of my sobriety now. You know, I'm just looking down the grass and my son sitting on the sofa, my husband there, like they remind me of the importance of me being sober to be here for them, the dogs looking at me, you know, these are all things that I'm constantly reminding myself of because with alcohol as my master, I wouldn't have any of it.

SPEAKER_02 49:26

And there's some stark statistics, aren't there, around women and alcoholism? And if somebody's listening to this who is affected by alcoholism, whether that's personally or within their family unit, then what advice would you give to them?

SPEAKER_01 49:43

I would say don't suffer alone, but like don't the shame that you feel. But I've been there, like shame keeps us in the illness, it keeps us there. Like speak to someone. I spoke, I I was so ashamed I couldn't speak to members of my own family, even my sister. I picked up an anonymous, I called an anonymous phone line, and that was picked up by someone like me, a woman like me, who understood without even me saying too much where I was and what I was. Don't let shame kill you, because it will. There is another way, and it starts with just asking for help. And I found it so hard, I've always found it hard to ask for help. You know, talk about it in my book Black Sheep around always having to save myself growing up, always having to be my own caretaker, always, and it's just so soul destroying. What reaching out for help back in back 10 years ago, it showed me that there's strength in vulnerability, you know, and it's something that I carry with to this day. There is no there's no there's no weakness.

SPEAKER_02 50:54

And one of the women that I'm a huge fan of, and I'm sure you read a lot of her stuff, Dr. Brene Brown talks about the power of vulnerability. And until you are truly vulnerable when you be your best self, and you're on that journey to be your best self day in, day out, and best start where you are. It's around taking women on a journey to do their kind of their first 5k. And I did laugh because I always say I am not a runner. And I'm just bringing it up. I think the chapter one says hashtag you are a runner.

SPEAKER_01 51:29

Yeah. I've got little postcards here. Say out loud, I am a runner.

unknown 51:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 51:36

As if you didn't have enough on your plate, you decided to uh write a second book. So what was the background of that and why did you do it?

SPEAKER_01 51:45

Yeah, I think that after writing Black Sheep, you know, it was a memoir and it was pretty emotional kind of writing that and kind of had to open a big Pandora's box and kind of go back and revisit kind of key events of my past. And it was very, you know, I put my heart and soul into it. And then, yeah, after a couple of years of of that being out, everyone was like, Well, what's the next book? And I was like, look, I was never gonna write one book. But then I was approached by the publisher, um, kind of to put some ideas together. And I thought, you know, if I was gonna write one book, the book that has to be written is a book for women, for women who are brand new or are coming back to running after some time off, and it is my love letter to them. It's everything, every question that I've ever been asked by women who are who I coach, you know. I still coach my mum's on the run every Friday. So the fact that I still have those those hands really deep into that meant that I was like, it's got to be that book. You know, yeah, I could write a book on ultra math and running, but ultimately you've got to start where you are. Like that's when I started in 2009. I was not a runner. I thought all of these things, I'm not a runner, I don't look like a runner, I don't even know how to all of these things. I was like, right, well, if I'm gonna write a book, it has to be that book. And you know, I was so it I loved writing it. Like it came so easy. I knew who I wanted to speak to. I did all the interviews, did you know, did use my social media in order to ensure that I was hearing from the readers and like what they thought and how they ran and how they can it was just a beautiful, a beautiful experience, right? It's so much, so much more uh joyful than actually writing black sheet. Um yeah, I love it. And even you know, I fought for everything in it. I fought for the illustrations of me doing the strength and with the ponytail, and I would go back and say the ponytail's not high enough, make it higher, it needs to look like me. I thought the uh that's I'm in the same kit right now. I fought for the illustration on the front. You know, running books don't normally look like this, it's like normally bold type and some kind of shadow, but I fought for a women of colour and women on the colour, you know, big thighs, you know, big hair, and I just it's the constant, it's these little things that it's so important. And um, I I am really, really proud of it. I really am. It's yeah. And it's for like women who were ultra runners are like, well, I read it and I picked up stuff from it, like, and that's the thing, right? Yeah, of course it has to be kind of marketed towards a specific demographic because you want to ensure that it's got you know you've got a niche, but ultimately the stuff in there that women who are out there doing role races are like, oh, and I read that, and it either reminded me, or I never knew that, Sab. I never knew that. Whole section on paramenopause, menopause, whole section on menstruation, whole section on yeah, like they're like, Oh, I just didn't know this star. So I'm I'm I'm really proud of it. I'm really proud of it.

SPEAKER_02 54:46

It's a great book, and it is a book that anybody can read. So whether or not you're beginning your running journey and you've got a great 10-week plan to get you to your 5k, and as you say, you're talking about fueling, mental, strength training, so much that we've spoken about. So much of our conversation today has been about unfinished business. And just to wrap up the podcast, if there's anybody listening to this that's in the middle of their own unfinished business and they're still trying to figure it out, what advice and what would you say to them to turn unfinished into clarity?

SPEAKER_01 55:21

I would just say small steps, big strides, you know? Like I very much believe in the power of chunking, and often these things in our lives can feel like these massive things that are unwieldy. And like, how do I even get there from here? And I say, no, no, no, no, no, don't think about the finish line. Let's get you from let's think about UTMB, let's get you from Chamonix to Lesouches. Okay, all right. And let's look at where we're going before that. Oh, we'll go along that. Like, let's chunk it down so small steps can lead to the most amazing change that you will ever see. But remember, bite, bite, bite, bite, bite, not like huge bite, swallow, choke. I think that's that's what I've seen in my life can lead, can help me out of situations that I'm like, how the hell do I get out of this? Or help me achieve dreams that seemed just that a dream and now a reality.

SPEAKER_02 56:16

It's the simplicity of the small steps lead to to big changes. And I'm just gonna go back to the book and did make me laugh that again, I think have a similar thought process. Feel the fear and do it anyway, anyway. And I guess that's uh the last point, isn't it, to anybody who feels the fear was the worst thing that can happen. Hey, you're probably gonna grow, you're probably gonna thrive, and it isn't gonna be as hard as you ever thought. And I guess that's where you are in your journey going through to obviously the next race for you is it's gonna be a great journey, and you're on a l a huge learning curve, and one you'll figure out, I'm sure. I definitely guarantee that that will happen to you.

SPEAKER_01 57:01

Yeah, absolutely. You know, fear, and I tell myself, you know, I really love an acronym, but it's like false, often it's false evidence appearing real, right? We tell ourselves, what if this happens? Hey, what if it doesn't? But if you don't try, you'll never know. You'll never know. False evidence appearing real. Now, sometimes the evidence is there to attribute to the fear, but oftentimes I've seen in my own life, it's literally that that that voice that we tell ourselves to to feel like we're keeping ourselves safe. But actually, sometimes we ought to push those boundaries out of the safety net in order to see the dream realized.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

I've loved uh two last two months that we've got to kind of know each other. Thank you for your time, thank you for your passion. If anybody wants to get a copy of the book, we'll put that in the kind of show notes. Anybody that wants to obviously get involved in it in the event, thank you. And uh you've got a session waiting for you, haven't you? What's tonight's session?

SPEAKER_01 57:57

Yeah, the session tonight is a climb from the Quantum Means Bourgeois, which is the first check uh second checkpoint in UTMB up to the top of Cal de Bonon, which is like the longest climb on the UTMB route. So that's what I'm stimulating.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

Yeah, well, enjoy it and thank you so much for your time, for your energy and your passion.

SPEAKER_01 58:17

Thank you so much for having me.